I'm just experimenting. I hate the word "blog" and am fascinated with how the net seems to nurture *everyone's* vanity.
dedicated to Evil Stormbringer and Wheeloffire
Published on January 17, 2007 By Philocthetes In Off-Topic
Evil did me right by starting his own thread on the "what's a thief" question. But a few posts later in that Grammar nazi sprawl thread, QuietlyObserving says "If we are to be a society founded on the Rule of Law, it would be prudent to maintain a healthy respect for language and the meaning of words, lest we slip into a dictatorship of unelected Judges."

This gives me a painfully beautiful opportunity to start a sister thread to Evil's, and ask you all to sink your fangs, fingers, etc., into the basic question "How does a law rule without a human to interpret and/or execute it?"

That's my latest hasty attempt at a longstanding interest in the gov't-of-law-and-not-men notion that's very popular here in the US. I've also known a few linguists and flirted with other philosphies enough to be taken aback by anyone who has too much certainty about the meaning of a particular word or phrase.

Unless you're a minor with parents who don't want you seeing PG-13 movies (I know we have some sharp youth out there, just want to respect your folks), I suggest finding and playing fword.wav before you finish a reply here.
Comments (Page 7)
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on Jan 22, 2007
adam and eve weren't immortal don't forget about the tree of life



I forgot about the tree of life! this is interesting indeed. How can adam and eve not be imortal before sinning? since the wages of sin is death and they haddn't sinned yet, how can they not be immortal??
on Jan 22, 2007
if you look at all of the land animals reptiles mammals and birdes mostly the mammals becouse they are now the large ones

they all fit into a small family i can't name them all off

but the deer family includeing the elk, and such the buffalo family, and you only take two of each of the families along then you could do it

which means that all of the different types of animals now on the planet evovled from this small sample

and crocs and gaters would not have had to be on board the ark nor most of the insects or the amphibians or any other animal that spends most of its time on the in the water or on it

this is totally my belief

adam and eve did die the day that they ate the fruit

ie that was the first day that man went to sleep

again this is totally my belief

according to science there is no reason for sleep

historically the first country was summeria that is where iraq is

but explain atlantis, masters of the air

on Jan 22, 2007
one further thought

i don't know the tribe but a tribe of american indians has been holding this rock as holy for 1000 years and when we take an exray of it. it was a spark plug


i saw this on pbs oh about 20 years ago
on Jan 22, 2007
which means that all of the different types of animals now on the planet evovled from this small sample



I considered this theory once, but what puts a stop to it is marsupials. Australia (one example)is packed full of wildlife that is simply not possible to have evolved from the ark animals. Somone else had to have saved marsupials definately not Noah. This is not just my belief but it also seems much more logical (in my opinion that is).

adam and eve did die the day that they ate the fruit

ie that was the first day that man went to sleep

again this is totally my belief

according to science there is no reason for sleep



I like to think sleep is a guift from God, knowing in his great wisdom the cruelty of man... what rest would the slaves of the world have if it wasn't for sleep? NONE!

So are you saying that Adam and Eve were imortal before eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge?
on Jan 22, 2007
no i am not saying that they were immortal

but if they were immortal they wouldn't have known the differnce

one more thing

before they eat the fruit they had daily contact with god after wards they were cut off from god directly

on Jan 22, 2007
I think it is a critical point if they were immortal or not. Because to suggest that death could occur without sin is a very unique concept?
on Jan 22, 2007
well maybe they were immortal but a conditional immortality where as the tree of life would have given them immortality without conditions
on Jan 23, 2007

danielost, your posts have given me pause to think. Anyway, i'm off to ponder what has been said so far, back in about an hour or so.

on Jan 23, 2007
oh and g.w. you can say what ever you want to as long as it is civil


I'm pretty sure daneilost didn't mean to be combative, but his or her quote could be read that way by many around here. I'm having a hard time with it b/c of conflict between my "secular" commitment to civil discourse and my "spiritual" convictions that the book faiths (revealed/written truth) are at best misguided and might well be "evil," even in their own terms.

I never doubted my right to speak my mind, and my lack of doubt is based in no small part on my uncertainty about things like the Christian creation stories.
on Jan 23, 2007
sorry he/I wasn't trying to be combative but inviting
on Jan 23, 2007
well maybe they were immortal but a conditional immortality where as the tree of life would have given them immortality without conditions



I thought about this post, it would make sense that adam and eve were imortal so long as they were without sin, that being the 'condition'. Therefore eating the fruit of the tree of life would have allowed imortality to continue after sin.

From this i have to wonder that death is a consequence of sin not a punishment. Kind of like jumping off a cliff - dying from jumping off a cliff is not a punishment but simply a natural result, cause and effect kind of thing.

I say this because if the tree of life could make man immortal after sin, then you would have to believe that the tree of life could prevent Gods punishment. Since i do not think anything could prevent Gods punishment aside from Jesus, it makes sense that death is not a punishment or the tree of life was a missprint, take your pick.

Death is simply an effect of sin, somthing that could have been avoided just as if you jumped off a cliff but had a parachute! IE - tree of life = parachute!
on Jan 23, 2007
the punishment was being cut off from god oh and the thorns and childbirth the pain there of

but if it wasn't for the pain of childbirth mothers would not love their children as much so maybe it really wasn't a punishment

all those animal sacrifices that the jews did was to prep them for the sacifice of christ

another condition of adam and eves immortality would be that they would remain innocent ie no sex (no desire for it or knowing about it)

thinking about it further if they had eaten of the tree of life instead of the tree of evil they would have remained the way they were for ever

no children and free to eat of the garden any way they want to

at least that is what i am beginning to think
on Jan 23, 2007
I admit I was fishing for digressions when I started this thread, but I hadn't at all expected a sustained debate about the Garden of Eden stories. If I was a better scholar, I'd have something sharp to say about how dull natural law arguments are for me, but I can only mutter about liking physics and politics more than theology. Grounding worldly power (i.e. churches & religious states) in myths has always led to nasty problems, IMO. I also fear my last post about being "combative" was some denial about my feisty responses to a number of recently posted points.

but if it wasn't for the pain of childbirth mothers would not love their children as much


This ticks me seriously b/c it sounds masochistic and ignores the love of fathers and adoptive parents, which I know can be stronger than a birth mother's love.

innocent ie no sex (no desire for it or knowing about it)


This ticks me off even more b/c I'm convinced that sex is "innocent" (rape is not sex, it is violence). Thankfully, not all monotheists are anti-sex, but too many still are, and the social effects of those millenia-old attitudes are still causing unwanted children, prostate cancers, suicides, etc.
on Jan 23, 2007
maybe it was just simple that they couldn't have children until the eat of that fruit

and men can love the children more than mothers but i think that only happens on the occasions that mom dies or hates or doesn't love her children and that does happen one of those choice things except the death thing

of course i could be wrong about most of what i am saying


one other facter for father love is the cute facter
on Jan 23, 2007
G.W. Swicord makes good points worth considering.

Our understanding of sex would seem to indicate that perfect beings would not do it, that is reasonable because you cannot have sex without lust and you cannot have perfect beings that lust, or can you?? Anyway, this is all based on our understanding of sex, however i'm sure God's perfect concept of sex would be somthing different, somthing that adam and eve would have had before the fall.

of course i could be wrong about most of what i am saying


True for all of us who dare to put forward unique concepts, keep up the good work!


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