I don't care for the direction this country is going but I accept that it was carried out by whom the gov't said did it.

It is that kind of acceptance that is allowing our country to head in the direction that you speak of... it doesn't make a person unpatriotic to question authority.

The frak you say! Any chance you noted the person's discipline?

No, I missed what he taught, but he was a professor at Oxford, which surprised me because I never would have expected a philosophy like that to come from what is supposed to be a 'prestigious' school.

At the risk of possibly upsetting someone

No offense is taken, Quixen, and I hope I did not offend anyone myself. I was joking. The entire post was rather sarcastic, in fact, to my shame. I apologize for not being clear about that. I'll try to do better.

I had just discovered that there are evidently a LOT of people who do believe the government conspiracy theory, however.

At the risk of offending someone else, I truly believe them to be idiots.

But what do I know? I'm just a backwoods hick with just enough education to realize how ignorant I really am.

GW, would you PLEASE stop making me have to look stuff up in the on-line Webster's. I'm starting to get a complex.

I had just discovered that there are evidently a LOT of people who do believe the government conspiracy theory, however. At the risk of offending someone else, I truly believe them to be idiots.

Well, you are living dangerously inferring that I am an idiot because I don't buy into government/Mossad based propaganda and misinformation. Look how many years it took for info to surface regarding Pearl Harbor and the obvious fact that we somehow 'let them do it' since we had advanced warning of the event. It was deemed necessary to get the American public behind us joining the war. Same situation this time, different coast, that's all. Notice how quick the general public was to go kill some 'habibs' after the towers came down... wrote songs and everything stating to kill Osama... so who do you think the real idiots are now?
Oh, and to trivialize death and killing by making decks of 'wanted cards' and passing them out everywhere... yeah, we're the idiots, uh huh.

look stuff up in the on-line Webster's

The form define:obscure works in any Google search box, AFAIK. IMO, the OED should be free online to everyone. If you have an academic login of some sort, you might be able to sign on to their fancy dictionary, and if you like learning about words, the Oxford English Dictionary is totally worth checking out.

If you actually go to physical libararies, you should be able to spot it b/c it is the only dictionary that occupies the better part of an average reference section bookshelf. The ones in the libarary are much nicer to read than the online or compact editions.

For us low browed folks dictionary.com works OK. Although they are missing some perfectly legitimate words. Just googling (that's one not at dictonary.com) the word you're looking for works fine as well. I actually like the opportunity to look up a word I don't know, although most times it's a word I know how to pronounce but just can't spell.

it doesn't make a person unpatriotic to question authority.

I agree. As a matter of fact, we are supposedly given that right to question. As an American we are given many rights that we take for granted on a daily basis. In contrast, if this happened to be Russia in the 50's and 60's however, this kind of questioning of your government would be down right hazardous to your health.

I believe it is healthy to question... to a point. That is why I am questioning those who believe the conspiracy theories surrounding September 11th. I want to understand them better and why they think the way they do. As I said, I know what I saw and seeing, in my case, is believing.

Pearl Harbor and the obvious fact that we somehow 'let them do it' since we had advanced warning of the event. It was deemed necessary to get the American public behind us joining the war. Same situation this time, different coast, that's all.

Here is the point. "Let them do it". We did not draw the plans up for them, hand deliver them, and choose those who would attack us. This is something they did. The fact of the matter is and more to the point, they were going to try whether we knew about it or not. Did we know? I really don't know the answer to that question regarding Pearl or September 11th.

What I do know is that 4 planes were hijacked by a particular group of individuals. The individuals supposedly belonged to a group that took responsibility for the attack... Publically. Same with Pearl Harbor, we knew who attacked us, it was painted plainly on their military equipment for all to see. Did we know in advance? Some say yes, some no, but we do know who attacked.

So now we must ask ourselves... what do we do? Blame the government for allowing it to happen? Protect ourselves by going after those who perpetrated such a horrible act? Sit around with our fingers in our butts and do nothing and hope it won't happen again? Is it our fault it happened because of our foreign policies? Is it their fault? Do we rip our country apart and begin another civil war? So many questions to ask, so few answers. It is proven human nature to try and understand things we do not, and sometimes... sometimes we make up reasons just so we feel we understand.

Again, I have no idea if we knew or not, and from the theories I have read, I have seen no proof to point me in another direction. I am not a stupid person and do not blindly follow our leaders, I do question. Some things are worth questioning. Some are not. I remember when TWA 800 fell from the sky. I remember the conspiracy theories surrounding the ill fated flight. Because we did not know what happened, people speculated. Everything from a terrorist bombing or stinger missile launch to a U.S military missile fired from a warship in the area. Blaming someone else or blaming ourselves? This is the circle we must live with in America?

Disclaimer: I was just trying to get the ball rolling here. Still haven't gotten any more information than what I already have. I am not intending to single anyone out or offend anyone.

"How about English-first people (Canadians, Americans, Brits, Ausies, etc) who don't know the difference between two / to / too OR their / there / they're.


I didn't do this anywhere did I? Please catch me if I did because I hate it myself. "

Wasn't talking about you, man. Just hate those who do it consistantly.

Kinjiru-san, When I criticize somebody's grammar, it's not to help them. It's to make them miserable.

Exactly.

The whole (stupid) theory that Bush and cronies did 9/11 is so easily disproved. These people are in the VAST minority.
The "film" Loose Change is so easily rebutted it's laughable.

Now, I don't care if you hate the US government hate Bush or Clinton or Giuliani.
What I hate is that these "conspiracists" are letting the ANIMALS who did 9/11 off the hook.
They (the ANIMALS) are people who want the world to live under one theocratic government (theirs) and dumb ourselves down to about the year 700 A.D.

Just hate those who do it consistantly.

consistently

couldn't resist, given the thread.

Q thanks for post #187. It sums up my thoughts nicely as well.

They (the ANIMALS) are people who want the world to live under one theocratic government (theirs)

Is this not what we do as a country? Is this not our 'foreign policy'? The more people I talk to, the more I realize that we as the 'common person' really don't seem to have any input when it comes to our government's foreign relations policies.
There may be better forms of government and there most certainly are worse ones. This crusade to bring 'Democracy' to the rest of the globe is almost akin to the Christian crusades of long ago. The only thing that came from those early crusades was the destruction of knowledge and human life in the name of Jesus (which I highly doubt was the true 'reason' since it is such a contradiction to associate a being who taught love and peace with such barbarity), but this is my opinion. I admit that I haven't thoroughly researched the crusades so I am always open to other ideas.
Well, that should have mixed things up just a little for us. Gives all of you more thoughts to chew on, doesn't it?

The more people I talk to, the more I realize that we as the 'common person' really don't seem to have any input when it comes to our government's foreign relations policies.

In bug fixing terms, this is By Design. I'm no original intent scholar (I find that whole camp to be remarkably un-American, although I hate to use the term). But a reading of the initial Constitution shows two things clearly:

1) The framers wanted numerous strong checks on democratic power.

2) Foreign affairs is clearly not a matter for "the rabble." All non-money power over wars and treaties was placed with the president and the Senate, neither of whom were directly elected by the people. As 2000 taught us, even today we can seat a president who did not win a majority of the popular vote, and the president overwhelmingly dominates foreign affairs.

The real question for me on these points is whether I *want* my democratic share of power (responsibility) over foreign policy. Sometimes it's nice to just submit to an "expert opinion" if you can muster the trust you need to do it.

Beg pardon, but like I said elswhere, I'm a lapsed civics teacher...

The real question for me on these points is whether I *want* my democratic share of power (responsibility) over foreign policy.

Well you should want it, especially if you are actually allowed to utilize it. Some people fail to realize that our 'enemies' don't necessarily hate us as the citizens, but they do hate that we 'allow' the atrocities to continue in our country's name. Not to get religious, but even the bible states that God holds the people of a nation responsible for the actions of their nation. It is easy enough to say that you are powerless, and in some respect you are right, but that doesn't let us off the hook in our foreign neighbor's eyes.
I admit that I don't practice what I preach. I've grown comfortable in my life. Enough so that to give up all that I have to go out and fight against our government just isn't an option for me right now. I don't want to lose all I have, and we all know that anyone who would fight our government would lose all, even if they were the victor.
The 'man' has us where he wants us, make no doubts about it, and he put us here just for the purpose of quelling our resistance to their plans for us.
Here's one for you... just read somewhere that the minimum wage was approved to go up to 7.25 an hour (woohoo). What do you guys think is going to happen to prices when that occurs? Do you honestly believe that you will see a cost of living increase? I know at my company there will be no such increases, as the owner already said so. And then he raised his prices... seriously.