danielost, I still don't seem to be communicating well with you. I'm asking for *specifics*, e.g. "Lebanese members of Hezbollah" or "Iranian-funded Palestinians."

When you use the small-but-large words you seem to prefer, you bury many peace-loving subgroups in your larger category of "enemies."

Put that together with my typing speed, love of ornate words, and well, I don't always communicate as well as I'd like

I understand completely. To speak eloquently whilst typing is very difficult. Couple this with being at work (as I am when I'm on here) and the occasional outbreak of excitement over a topic or reply...

PS: And yes, the constant 'in-fighting' with my own urges to flame the hell out of someone, ahem, which I have somehow managed to suppress.

all of the muslims in direct conflict with isreal are arabs

Danielost, I think you need to brush up a little bit on your history. When Israel was 'created' even though it angered many 'muslims/arabs' the Palestinians did in fact accept the Jews alongside themselves, in THEIR OWN country. The established borders were not good enough for the Zionist leadership so they set in motion actions which would make them out to be the 'good guys' in the world's eyes, giving them the excuse and opportunity to carry out genocide for their own expansion of Israel. Now I may not be conveying this all too well, as G.W. pointed out this can be difficult, but I think if you research a little bit, you will see what I am saying.
Remember one thing... if you ever have the chance to talk to a true Zionist Jew, of which there are many residing here in Pittsburgh, you will learn that the person you are speaking to thinks that you are a lesser creature than he/she is. If you are not one of them, you are worthless, you are an animal, and you are only here for the Zionist's use for you. This is how they see all of us. This is why if you know your New Testament (and even some of the Old Testament) you will see that not only God disliked the Jews and what they had become, but so did Jesus. Why do you think the Pharisees had Jesus executed? Because he spoke the truth about them, period.

Those of you who throw around the term 'fanatic'... when was the last time an Arab knocked at your front door and stuck an AK-47 in your face with the demand that you worship Allah or else? I can't ever recall that happening around here, but then maybe I just live in a bubble huh? Doubtful.

I used the term fanatic, but i did not use the term 'arab'. My point was that when i think of a religious fanatic full of hatred and be willing to die for their cause.... Ah yea i could not imagine diplomacy having much effect. I mean how can you deal with this kind of person aside from a bullet or a serious amount of drugs??

I mean how can you deal with this kind of person aside from a bullet or a serious amount of drugs??

All I can say is LOL. That was a good one Mystikmind. Believe me, I also understand what you mean about fanaticism. Yes it is truly impossible to sway these 'people' once they have totally closed their mind to anything else but what they believe. My point was, if they're not bothering me, why bother them? Is it fair or honorable to preemptively attack them because of this fanaticism? I don't know the answer to that one.
Besides all of that, I believe the Iraq war was more to do with Saddam and his CIA dealings more than any other factor. That's why Daddy Bush stopped the push to finish off Saddam the first time... because Saddam probably 'caved in' and promised to shut up and comply. Remember Noriega? Same thing. The Panama invasion was nothing more than a snatch and grab perpetrated by the CIA to shut Noriega up because he wasn't playing ball anymore. You don't think so? Try crossing the CIA then... for you will only do it once.

That's why Daddy Bush stopped the push to finish off Saddam the first time

Here's one where I'm inclined to give Bush 41 a small hat-tip. IMO, they chose not to take the fight into Iraq b/c they understood what it means to kick over an anthill with bare feet and then stand in it. Plus they also apparently understood the value and complexity of maintaining a strong international coalition--just compare the bills (banker's and butcher's) for the '91 war and our current long, hard slog.

The Hussein regime got a solid spanking that kept the world's oil flow safe. The sanctions and inspection regimes had their problems (killing children not least among them), but the no-fly zones were working to keep Iraqi military power contained. Bush 43's choice to invade might well end up being the textbook example used in discussions of "cowboy diplomacy."

IMO, they chose not to take the fight into Iraq b/c they understood what it means to kick over an anthill with bare feet and then stand in it.

That was a good example there G.W. but I will still stick to my belief that there was a lot more to it, almost all of which we will never know. Espionage is of course the business of deceit... so how could any of us truly know for sure? I just try to follow the trail, be it money, oil, guns or drugs. They almost always lead back to our politicians/intelligence community and those two groups are securely cemented into the military/industrial complex which truly runs the world. Remember, killing is a business and business is very, very, very good... especially right now.

That's why Daddy Bush stopped the push to finish off Saddam the first time

Here's one where I'm inclined to give Bush 41 a small hat-tip. IMO, they chose not to take the fight into Iraq b/c they understood what it means to kick over an anthill with bare feet and then stand in it. Plus they also apparently understood the value and complexity of maintaining a strong international coalition--just compare the bills (banker's and butcher's) for the '91 war and our current long, hard slog.

The Hussein regime got a solid spanking that kept the world's oil flow safe. The sanctions and inspection regimes had their problems (killing children not least among them), but the no-fly zones were working to keep Iraqi military power contained. Bush 43's choice to invade might well end up being the textbook example used in discussions of "cowboy diplomacy."

When Israel was 'created' even though it angered many 'muslims/arabs' the Palestinians did in fact accept the Jews alongside themselves, in THEIR OWN country

How did the Jews end up not in israel in the first place? All i know is that israel ceased to exist at some point after the roman empire colapsed. I don't know if they completely abandoned israel or were slaughtered/driven out? Somehow the palestinians ended up owning israel, i don't know how? then after a few crusades etc etc palestine eventually became part of the ottoman empire. So then palestine was 'liberated' or perhaps a better term would be 'conquored' from the turks by the british. Then the british did a similar trick to what they did in India and divided the country upon granting independance. Now you don't see Indians blowing themselves up and carrying on like lunatics and swearing to iliminate pakistan do you? So i don't know why palestine carnt accept israel the same way india accepts pakistan (even if they do quarrel)?

i remember now... palestine attacked israel and got conquored. So began the big independance struggle... yea makes sense now.

The British didnt give the land to the Israelis, it was an action done by the Big Eight(the victors of World War II). Britain did own the land, but after the war a lot of territory had to be labeled "international" and then sorted back to its proper owners. Most of this was the Allied powers feeling guilty that they didnt step in earlier.

I think Israel exists in our world today as a safe guard against possible genocide. The world saw what happened to an innocent race and they decided to give them something to easy their suffering. I mean even Russia let many of its jewish citizens immigrate to Israel after WWII(immigration was very rare back then). Other countries contributed as well. But, one little hindsight was to be noted, the differance of culture between the two religious groups. I mean some Palistinies were driven from their homes, their lands confiscated. I can see why they are being angry, but we can not call them evil. Being violent does not necessarily underly bad morals.

We can toss around blame from one side to the other, you could say this all started with the Crusades, or the collapse of the Roman Empire. The farther we trace the thread of time the more confusing it will become to who or what actually caused the cultural conflict we have on our hands today.

1919-1923
Third Aliyah, roughly 40,000 more Jews arrive in Palestine, mostly from Eastern Europe.


[edit] January 18 1919
Faisal-Weizmann Agreement between Arabs and Jews at Paris Peace Conference, 1919. "We Arabs," said Faisal, "especially the educated among us, look with the deepest sympathy on the Zionist movement... We will wish the Jews a most hearty welcome home."


[edit] March 1, 1920
Jewish settlements in the Upper Galilee were attacked by Arab forces. Joseph Trumpeldor was among 8 who died defending Tel Hai.


[edit] April-June, 1920
Jerusalem pogrom of 1920 April 4-7. The violent 3-day riot against the Jews in Jerusalem's Old City prompts the establishment of Haganah on June 15, 1920.



there is no mention of palis so in 1919 the arabs said welcome home

in 1920 they are attacked be the arab forces so much for the welcome home and the first attack goes to the arabs too


to get the rest of the story this is where i got my info from

Timeline of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict




oh and emperior it was the league of nations that give the land to the jews under british mandate

by the way don't tell me to look something up becouse i will

Now you don't see Indians blowing themselves up and carrying on like lunatics and swearing to iliminate pakistan do you

Yes, there is a great deal of sectarian strife within India (bombs, assassinations, the whole song and dance) and some folks are worried that the BJP (current ruling party) are covertly committed to elminating Pakistan.

that is ok pakistan is overtly committed to eliminating india